Go ahead, vote and debate.. Personally, I think they should only have an abortion if they wouldnt survive the birth, any other way is just cold-hearted murder, no matter what you say.

You know, you can vote too.

I chose inbetween. It is wrong to kill an innocent human, but it's part of the growing intelligence of our world.

I am pro lyfe. If it had to be a decision between the mother or the child. The child is way more important. :ninja: :ninja:

Well, I disagree there, because if the Mother died, the child could die in birth anyways.

I didn't vote yet because I wasnt sure what to vote.

But yeah, I hate selfish mothers who say "Its my choice", no there is a life inside your belly because you were a idiot, that was your choice to, you chose wrong!

That's my side and I stick to it. :ninja: :ninja:

I'm Pro choice. I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about that. If my ex-girlfriend had have had that baby mine and her life would have been totally different. I'd like to think we're both better off now. There's no evidence that the baby is 'alive' until a certain point during pregnancy anyway. The way I see it in my instance is that we potentially took one life to save two others from being frought with financial problems (we couldn't afford to support a child).

I'm also Pro choice because Pro life seems to suggest that a woman has no freedom say, if she was raped, other than to have the child of her rapist. I know its not the baby's fault, but its not the woman's fault either.

And there are too many humans on the planet, ruining the Eco system and potentially making Earth uninhabitable. I hope the Roman Catholics have an answer for when that happens due to prohibiting contraception. I'd like to see where their God is when we all starve to death.

Set it up for adoption, even if they dont have enough people to take it.. its their problem then isnt it? after all.. you had the sex, they have the problem.

See where this is going?

I don't really have very much time today though.. or tomarrow..

I know, some people don't look at other options, they think that abortion is less sad than giving it up for adoption. Or at least put it on an orphanage. :ninja: :ninja:

What about when the innocent woman is pregnant? No job, more food, less money.

Pro-Choice. If the mother wants to kill her baby, thats her choice. Its probably gonna hurt her more than the baby, having those memories of killing your baby haunt you for your entire life.

It should be freedom of choice! Broken condoms can cause many problems in young couples!

Bullshit, if someone got two people together, gave one bad memories and shot the other, which did it hurt more?

Words are harmfull, but they usualy don't take peoples lives away from them because they wanted some nice sex.

Face the music you idiots, don't you understand? if your BC methods didnt work, too bad for you, don't force your rage on others.

Quite frankly, no one wants to break their "Convenience", sure if you ask a hundred people if they want to feed the poor if they had the chance, they would probably say yes, but then you would tell them "They can feed the poor, and shelter them to", and you know what? those people would probably just rebuke themselves and/or walk away.

Most people don't want to break their happy life cycle, get up take a shower.. go to work/school and come home and slouch around, doing nothing but dirtying up their enviorment untill finally, they die, and what do people have to remember them by? 3 dead babies, or maybe a house or car, possibly some money they left behind.

No one wants to break the promise of that, do they?

So the baby doesn't have a choice? It has to die? Every person has the right to live. :ninja: :ninja:

Exactly, the mother doesnt have shit for an argument unless she-

• Got raped.
• Wouldnt survive the birth*

There are no other reasons, you can't value ANYTHING above life itself.

Sure, believe what you want to believe. As long as no one can provoke me from changing my choice. :ninja: :ninja:

Precisely what debate is for, forcing your beliefs on others :haha: .

Well then, I don't want to debate. So I'll leave it to that. :ninja: :ninja:

Define when life begins.

Thats what people like to pull on you, but that doesnt matter.

Life begins when concieved? do you know why?

Becuase.. no matter what, you would be ultimately killing a baby, as if... if you did not have the abortion you would have a baby.

Think of going back in time and killing... Joan de Arc's father, know what would have happend? No Joan of Arc, its the same principle, kill a tiger as a cub and you get no tiger, kill a human as a being inside its mothers womb, and you get no human.

Yeah exactly. Killing something that will turn into life is still killing something with life. It's like smashing a seed, and we know for sure that there will be no sprout. :ninja: :ninja:

So should we ban masturbation and menstruation also? Both of those are killing something that could ultimately become a living person.

And thats why its bollocks. People put too much emphasis on life in other people/creatures while wasting theirs.

Yeah but masterbation and mentstration are half of what life will begin in. :ninja: :ninja:

That means I could shoot you, but because I am not wasting my life, I don't need to get disrespect for it.

Besides, how could you possibly ban masturbation? its not like you could constantly keep a watch on people.

Abortion however you could definantly put a big 'ol wall up on, sure you could still do it illegaly... but it would be just that, illegal.

Exactly. Abortion is a very big issue. :ninja: :ninja:

What? No, it's killing something that would otherwise have become a living breathing human.

I cant stand how they can argue for pro-abortion. It just doesnt make since. Its legal murder.

No its not. If you think a woman should be forced into motherhood just because she's pregnant then you're taking away her right to choose how she wants to live life. There's over 6 billion humans devouring this planet of its life sustaining abilities and you're saying you want unwanted children being born? What gives you the right to be so high and mighty, yet sit back while millions of animals are slaughtered every day? Just because humans think that they think more than other animals doesn't give us the right to make that type of decision. I would much rather have an already live and healthy human have a better quality of life than force her into bringing another life into the world, when they're both going to end up unhappy.

I can't stand how people can be 'anti-choice'. What right do they have to deny another person the right to deal with a parasite in any way they choose? Abortion is the simplest and most effective method of dealing with unwanted pregnancies.

Adoption is not as realistic an option as people tend to suggest. The reality is that human instincts are geared towards caring for their own children - ie people struggle with having given up their child, or change their mind altogther. It means that they're in a completely unfeasiable situation and will wind up demonstrably worse off, and possibly even worse off for the child also. On top of that, we have problems with the children if they are adopted in the family their placed in, dealing with the situation - ie being unwanted by their biological mother and also other problems that may emerge should the biological parents ever attempt to track them down and reclaim them.

I sympathise with people who think that it is somewhat unpleasant, but the simply reality is it's quite neccesary in a society which allows sex for reasons beyond reproduction. There is no alternative which is feasible and comparatively effective;.

[apologies for any typos in their, I'm listening to the Shaft themesong at the moment so I'm not really concerntrating, plus it's 1:30am]

QFT

Having unprotected sex is the only way of not getting pregnant. :ph34r: :ph34r:

Alright here we go. She already chose how she wants to live when she had unprotected sex. Thats a chose you have to make and abortion is just an excuse on your own actions. People these days are trying to think of easier ways to counter not-thought out ones; letting not-thought out actions continue.

The key word you said right there is unwanted children.
Unwatned children.
Thats the thing most people miss: These child are PEOPLE. They're LIVES. You are destroying the chance for a future LIFE.

You should never unwant a child, especially when you had unprotected sex knowing that there was a large chance that a life, a child, a baby, would be born for you.

You obviously think this is some power struggle dont you?
Well lets look at it like this:
What gives you the right to be so ignorant as to fucking destroy the chance for a future life for a child just because a girl made a stupid choice in the past.

You obviously saying a last statement that concludes that the mother is happier now that she doesnt have to DEAL with her child?
I'll take a stance on that.
Society should look at birth as something special, rather than a burden.



Thats what I have to say. Those are very, very moral answers in my opinion.

Okay, I'm going to summarise your post into two statements:

1) Birth/life is something that should be protected
2) People should only have unprotected sex when they want to have children.

I think this is a fair summary of where you're standing, and it's simply to cover your point when it's boiled down rather than on a more dillute level on a 'case-by-case' basis as it were. If you have any disagreements with that summary, point them out.

Okay, point 1. I can understand your view on life, but why limit it as you do?

Why not prohibit non-reproductive sex entirely? And Masturbation as well. Both result in the death of sperm that otherwise would have been able to reproduce, or at least play a role in the process. Every time you ejaculate, you're killing a child.

Similalry, are you a vegan? Why do you tolerate the extermination of one mammals life yet find another mammals life sacred?

At the early stages of pregnancy (when the pregnancy is aborted) the foetus (which is only just a foetus at this stage) is not an independent life - do you recall being in the womb? It has no consciousness of its own - it is only an assumption in humans that gives that foetus a 'life'. There' is a strong arguement to be made that a foetus is a parasite , although it has its limitations but certainly it meets virtually all the criteria of that classification. Simply put, it is it's hosts possesion and I firmly feel that she has the right to deal with it in whatever way she feels is fit.

Point 2. I agree entirely with you. There are risks associated with sex and using protecting is the best way to mitigate them. However, it's far from total protection. Every form of protection has a failure rate. Do we punish people for taking every precaution but are effected by a freak accident?

However, who are we to regulate the life of another human being to such a level? It totalitatrian to say that you must use protection, and unreasonable. It's fair enough to advise and encourage and make available with minimal fuss, but to lay down a line in the sand is taking a step too far. Simply put, it's her body, and her right to choose.

Its a shame we don't have any females here, to give a woman's perspective.

Yes that would help.

[QUOTE]1) Birth/life is something that should be protected
2) People should only have unprotected sex when they want to have children.[/QUOTE]

Precise. But thats the basis of morality and there are moral reasons for these.

[QUOTE]I think this is a fair summary of where you're standing, and it's simply to cover your point when it's boiled down rather than on a more dillute level on a 'case-by-case' basis as it were.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying that I am only looking to the cause as a limited thing?

[QUOTE]
If you have any disagreements with that summary, point them out.[/QUOTE]

Shall do. Thanks for the debate.

[QUOTE]
Okay, point 1. I can understand your view on life, but why limit it as you do? Why not prohibit non-reproductive sex entirely?
And Masturbation as well. Both result in the death of sperm that otherwise would have been able to reproduce,[ or at least play a role in the process. Every time you ejaculate, you're killing a child./QUOTE]

See my reasons against abortion completely give reason against this statement.

I wouldn't prohibit non-reprouductive sex, such as masturbation,
because what I am saying is that these babies being born are ALREADY FORMED, are ALREADY TO THE STAGE OF FUTURE LIFE, ARE LIFE, AND ARE NOT STILL THE FORM OF ONE SPERM CELL READY FOR BONDING WITH THE EGG CELL.

What I'm saying is that the sperm and egg fell alone can not form a child, right?
So you're argument that why not ban non-repredouctive sex is kind of pointless: THE SEX IS NON-REPRODUCTIVE! You cant form a baby from masturbation or Non-reproductive.

Sure you are kiling the sperm and egg cells but you are making a choice that you wont be bonding the two. Non-Reproductive sex is actually smart if you want to avoid birth.

[QUOTE]Similalry, are you a vegan? Why do you tolerate the extermination of one mammals life yet find another mammals life sacred?[/QUOTE]

Oh this is just a stupid argument. I hate to say that but this is really non-sequitor and just a half-viewed argument to help go against my perspective.

Yout hink I tolerate extermination because I eat dead animals and am okay with it?
Its called the food chain.
We have to kill mammals because we need to eat.
Animals kill other mammals for the same reason. It is something natural.
However abortion is not natural and is killing for their removal of life. There is no other cause for it. However there is a cause for killing animals for food because it is neccessary thing to do.

[QUOTE] At the early stages of pregnancy (when the pregnancy is aborted) the foetus (which is only just a foetus at this stage) is not an independent life - do you recall being in the womb? It has no consciousness of its own - it is only an assumption in humans that gives that foetus a 'life'.[/QUOTE]

Please understand this:
Early stages of pregancy, there is a fetus. You say only a fetus but this fucking fetus is a person. It doesnt matter what stage a FETUS is, we know it has a very good chance of living.
This is something will grow into a life.
IT DOESNT MATTER IF THERE IS CONSCIOUSNESS!

A fetus will grow and obtain a life. If you kill it hten you are killing af future life.

I dont think theres anyway you can get past the fact. It doesnt matter if there is consciousness or if he's just a little fetus:
This will grow into something more: A growing living person.


[QUOTE]
There' is a strong arguement to be made that a foetus is a parasite , although it has its limitations but certainly it meets virtually all the criteria of that classification. Simply put, it is it's hosts possesion and I firmly feel that she has the right to deal with it in whatever way she feels is fit.
[/QUOTE]

You are sa ying that a fetus is a parasite. Oh okay are you trying to degrade the status of the feotus's existence? Thats what you are arguing with.

Then you say she has the right to deali with it anyway she feels is fit.

Okay, lets view this:
Dianne has sex.
She loves it.
She soon finds shes pregnant.
She goes out once hte baby is born and kills it.

But shes completely innocent, right?
You know why because you say she has the right to deal with anyway she feels how. Bullshit.

If you want to argue that murder of their own child is fine just because its done through poison or from a doctors hand is completely absurd.

This murder is murder.
You wouldn't support Dianne because she physically killed the baby with her own hands.

But if Dianne had a fucking abortion you would say "She was okay doing that. She has the right to do what she feels with it."

There is no fucking diference.

[QUOTE]Point 2. I agree entirely with you. There are risks associated with sex and using protecting is the best way to mitigate them. However, it's far from total protection. Every form of protection has a failure rate. Do we punish people for taking every precaution but are effected by a freak accident?

[/QUOTE]

Still if the baby is born you would honestly say:

"Oh, well we had sex and it was protected sex. So really we didnt know this was going to happen. So we want to abort the baby."

And then you would feel just fine killing something just because you HAD A FUCKING EXCUSE FOR THE BIRTH.

And then you say this:

[QUOTE]Do we punish people for taking every precaution but are effected by a freak accident?[/QUOTE]

That statement makes me angry.

GIVING BIRTH IS NOT A PUNISHMENT! DONT CAMPARE IT!
GIVING BIRTH IS SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL!

[QUOTE]However, who are we to regulate the life of another human being to such a level? It totalitatrian to say that you must use protection, and unreasonable. It's fair enough to advise and encourage and make available with minimal fuss, but to lay down a line in the sand is taking a step too far. Simply put, it's her body, and her right to choose.[/QUOTE]

Okay in this final statment you are trying to portay me as someone who is saying "USE PROTECTION".

I'm saying if you cant handle the responsibilities as mother yes.

Best way to do it if you cant handle the responsibilities of a mother is TO NOT HAVE SEX AT ALL, WHETHER PROTECTED OR NOT.

You say Its her body and her right to choose.

No, mothers should not have a choice whether to kill their chidlren.

However they should have the choice as to if they want a baby or not when they have sex.

If they dont want the responsibilites as mother its not an argument as to whether they want to abort their baby or not.

Its as whether they want to give birth or not to have sex.

Please READ ALL OF THIS ARGUMENT. I THINK BOTH OF MINE GIVE VERY MORAL ANSWERS.

ALSO THANK YOU PURGE ANDP PUMP FOR YOUR VIEWS!
This is not a personal flame or anything. Its just a argument on your views.
~G

Why are you so worried about abortion? Did you abort your babies or something? 8)

Okay, I'm not a big fan of the whole 'responding point by point' attitude in arguements, instead just boiling down the arguement to it's 'core' and arguing them.

I think the main point we're disagreeing on here is the Foetus, and whether or not it is a 'human' or not. Which, ultimately, these debates are centred around.

A comparasion between a baby and a foetus is limited in its accuracy. Most notably, because of the fact that there is the rather notable point of how the Foetus is entirely dependent on the mother -- she breathes, eats and even excretes for the both of them. Comparatively, a newborn while not being truely 'independent' is beginning to be able to preform the '8 functions of life' of its accord. A foetus preforms none of these functions, and accordingly is not a seperate life at that stage.

Thus, to argue that because a babies life should be protected, so too should a foetus' is rather unsatisfactory.

There are also 'quality of life' issues as well. If a baby was born with serious physical and/or mental problems - say it was unable to communicate or move. What would your stance on this child be? Do you burden somebody (probably the parents) with the responsibility of caring for this child - with no hope for improvement, just waiting until said child dies - which could be 12 months, or could be 20 years. Or, would you say let us ethuanase this child, in as painless a way possible. Does life come before quality thereof?

Similarly, what about a child that would otherwise have been aborted. The mother is presumably either not able to properly care for said child or not willing to care for it for whatever reason. I've already explored the unfeasibility of adoption as an option here also. Surely, in said situation the most humane thing to do is to prevent such a miserable existance ever occuring?

Let us put aside your idealism for this too - the reality is, this world is imperfect. If it were prefect there would be no need for abortions at all, I agree entirely with you on that count. What I disagree with is the arguement that in a perfect world there wouldn't be abortions so in this world there shouldn't be abortions. The only really 'legitimate' issue to contest abortions on is the above - the 'life' of a foetus.

i think its the decision not of the mother,but of THE COUPLE. if guy doesnt ok it, it aint right.
btw pumpkin head, if you worriedabout overpopulation, dont worry bout it cuz world war 3 will probably solve that problem within our lifetime.

Is it wrong to care about other people? :ph34r: :ph34r: